Car Stat Revamping?

[Torazo]

After a lot of talk about this, it seems that the stats of each car needs to be changed. I am taking aspects that are already a part of DC and wanting to see them revised so that it is more of a logical way to see each vehicle. I am using Driving Simulators as a reference for this. Seeing an slow accelerating Muscle Car is just, wrong. A properly tuned Muscle Car is a lot better at accelerating than most other cars. Don't go saying stuff like "This isn't real life." or "This game is not the same as those games." because I quite clearly already know that. So what if it isn't real life or those other games? Why can't they have a more realistic feel to the stats just because they can?

The Before-Look

Every car for its' V-type has set amount of points regardless of what type of car it is. When you see a muscle car having less acceleration than other cars and you see a muscle car with less durability than other cars, it just makes you wonder.


The After-Look

Every car in each V-type will have a better rounding of statistical features.

Here is what I posted in another topic.

If you want to try backing something up by saying that their stats are something... Why not put this statement of mine into consideration. Why do they put each car in a specific V-Class with the approximate same stats?

Frankly, I think the price of the car should be determined off of the stats it gives in this game... The Snake should have High Speed, High Accel, High Dura, Low Boost. It IS a muscle car is it not?

Tuners: Medium-High Accel, Medium-High Speed, Medium Dura, Medium Boost
Exotics: Medium Accel, High Speed, Low Dura, High Boost
Muscles: High Accel, Medium-High Speed, Medium-High Dura, Low Boost
SUV's: Medium-Low Accel, High Speed, High Dura, Low Boost

Not all cars of these categories are based like this obviously.

Frankly, I think that each V7 should have its' own set of unique stats rather than a set amount that is placed into each category... Oh wow, this V7 has (example 500 points) 500 points, omg... this one has 501... The rest have either 500 or 501... What the hell is this?

In my opinion, these need to be changed!

Make it so a muscle car feels more like a muscle car and an exotic feel more like an exotic. This alone will make people choose from more cars instead of a select few.


I think ijji needs to work on these a bit. They already have different stats than Skid Rush, so why not change them so people can enjoy the stats on the car more?

Here is an Example Idea too

Right now I have a sweet picture in my head of a program that allows you to literally tune the car when you buy it. Basically, you pull one stat a bit, the others follow a bit. The more rounded the stats are, the more total points you get for that car. This program would be REALLY difficult to make though.

V9... 400 in speed would result in the others getting like 100 each, while if you put them all at 200... you see what I mean. This is only one thing I thought of, but this is probably not within ijji's boundaries XD

People generally choose what they are accustomed to first... If the statistics of the car looks wrong, then they might not even bother... I wanted the Snake when I saw it... Until I looked at its' stats... I was saddened.

I will laugh at people who decide to post anything related to NFS, because the term Tuner, Muscle and Exotic came from the types of cars themselves, not from the games deciding to call them that. By the way, Gran Turismo is a great game to realize the real cars themselves. Driving Simulators are the best at determining which cars are the best at acceleration, handling, and speed.

Go here to find out how to tell the difference between a Muscle Car, tuner and Exotic.
About All Types:
http://wiki.nfsunlimited.net/wiki/Need_for_Speed_Carbon_Car_Classes

About Muscles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_Car

You can probably find out about all the car types if you used a search engine too.

[Toyotaspeed]

Well put mate.I was wondering the same thing,and that Car Racism thread over there in the Dealership section.

[bmwracer67]

Well, actually u cant say that Muscles shud have low boost or exotics high - in real life they all have no boost when stock. Oh, and how can exotics have medium accel when muscle have high? Shouldn't it be the other way. And tuners don't have good accel cmopared to like exotics. But this game isa VERY arcade and VERY unrealistic.

But otherwise - nice thread.

[Torazo]

Well, actually u cant say that Muscles shud have low boost or exotics high - in real life they all have no boost when stock. Oh, and how can exotics have medium accel when muscle have high? Shouldn't it be the other way. And tuners don't have good accel cmopared to like exotics. But this game isa VERY arcade and VERY unrealistic.

But otherwise - nice thread.

I can say if they should or not because it is to even things out between the cars. Think about it. What would you normally see using nitrous more often? Exotics, Tuners, or Muscles? In my opinion, Muscles are the least likely to have boosts, while Tuners would probably be the most likely to have boosts... I should change that.

It doesn't matter if it is an arcade game and it is very unrealistic. At least they could draw attention to the game by the way they distribute the stats for each car. Realism has nothing to do with it, but realism has an effect on how these are created. Realism was required to make this game to begin with. If the AE86 Trueno and AE85 Levin were never created, Initial D wouldn't exist the way it does, and Drift City wouldn't have the "Panda"... If cars didn't exist to begin with, then Drift City would cease to exist. This is my argument to anybody that tries to say that realism has absolutely nothing to do with video games. This is why I hate people that say "This is a game, stop taking it so seriously."... I could careless if it were a game or not, people that make stupid excuses like that are the ones taking it seriously.

I am going to play NFS Carbon and Gran Turismo a bit to find out where each car type stands... Of course, Monster Trucks would probably be considered Muscle... The reason, because of the torque.

For those that need a better understanding on what types of vehicles are Muscles, Tuners and Exotics, I have added a link to the end of the first post.

NFS games are the easiest games to determine how most real life cars are represented too, while Gran Turismo games take the real life car and attempt to completely mimic the real life version of the car.

Muscle Car: intended for maximum acceleration on the street or in drag racing competition

Exotic Cars: Also known as Supercars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercars
The term supercar may refer to factory-built, street-legal sports cars, or to modified production cars that have similar performance.

Tuners: Short term for Import Tuner. Cars that are generally from Japan.

[Torazo]

I looked at the stats of the Cielo and the Snake just now, and I was shocked...

The V9 Counterparts are so pathetic.

Snake V9; Acceleration; 151, Speed; 272, Durability; 182, Boost; 195
Cielo V9; Acceleration; 141, Speed; 272, Durability; 222, Boost; 165

I seriously see something wrong with those stats. The Cielo is one of the slowest accelerating cars in the game despite the fact that it is a 4WD... I couldn't careless if this game made every car the exact same type of car... Muscle cars are supposed to be made solely for accelerating to high speeds. I think the boost is too high.. Some of that should be tossed into Acceleration. The Snake also looks like it should have more durability than the Cielo...

Man. They really need an overhaul on the car stats. I mean all of them.


Edit:
In my opinion, this is closer to what I think these cars stats should be like...

Snake - V9;
Acceleration; 272
Speed; 233
Durability; 188
Boost; 107

Cielo -- V9:
Acceleration; 228
Speed; 257
Durability; 143
Boost; 172

[id0ru]

Wait a sec... Surely Exotics are by FAR the least likely to have boost or ANY aftermarket parts and tuning whatsoever. It's not rare to see Muscle Cars modified but it's quite rare that you see a modified Exotic as they are in themselves rare.

If you want to make an Exotic feel like an exotic you're going to have to make it Faster accelerating AND faster top speed with Durability on par with a Ruby.
This thread seems more on boosting Muscle cars that balancing. How else would you reconcile the differences? Surely someone in an Enzo would feel it silly if someone in a (V9) Snake could compete with him? Perhaps the only way to redress this all would be by looking at the handling of the cars and modifying that?

I think perhaps the settings of the muscle cars acc might be to take into account corners. We all know that cornering in this game is a bit strange compared to most. I mean you can drift a V9 SUV in this game at top speed around a corner fairly easily. But if say an Enzo and a V9 Snake go into a corner at the same speed, then the weight, low centre of gravity, and the whole design of the Enzo would allow it to enter and exit the corner at a higher speed and accelerate away quicker than a Snake ever could? Though in this game we know that once you reach a certain lvl you can exit a corner at pretty much max speed if you take it well. A Mustangs length and weight and ride height and engine position among other things would work against it in this area.

Though I do understand your frustration i'm not sure how it can be changed in a way that still allows a varied selection of car stats without making one of the car types look silly. We already have the Gigas which is an Exotic with hillarious Acceleration stats. At least +acc parts are easier to come by than +speed ones. You pointed out the Cielo as having pretty silly acc stats. So it's not just a case of picking on the muscle cars.

[Torazo]

Wait a sec... Surely Exotics are by FAR the least likely to have boost or ANY aftermarket parts and tuning whatsoever. It's not rare to see Muscle Cars modified but it's quite rare that you see a modified Exotic as they are in themselves rare.

If you want to make an Exotic feel like an exotic you're going to have to make it Faster accelerating AND faster top speed with Durability on par with a Ruby.
This thread seems more on boosting Muscle cars that balancing. How else would you reconcile the differences? Surely someone in an Enzo would feel it silly if someone in a (V9) Snake could compete with him? Perhaps the only way to redress this all would be by looking at the handling of the cars and modifying that?

I think perhaps the settings of the muscle cars acc might be to take into account corners. We all know that cornering in this game is a bit strange compared to most. I mean you can drift a V9 SUV in this game at top speed around a corner fairly easily. But if say an Enzo and a V9 Snake go into a corner at the same speed, then the weight, low centre of gravity, and the whole design of the Enzo would allow it to enter and exit the corner at a higher speed and accelerate away quicker than a Snake ever could? Though in this game we know that once you reach a certain lvl you can exit a corner at pretty much max speed if you take it well. A Mustangs length and weight and ride height and engine position among other things would work against it in this area.

Though I do understand your frustration i'm not sure how it can be changed in a way that still allows a varied selection of car stats without making one of the car types look silly. We already have the Gigas which is an Exotic with hillarious Acceleration stats. At least +acc parts are easier to come by than +speed ones. You pointed out the Cielo as having pretty silly acc stats. So it's not just a case of picking on the muscle cars.

If you hadn't noticed, I gave both cars stats based off of their original concept. Not the original game concept, but how they act in real life... Also, each V9 gets 800-801 stat points.

Imagine the R34 with the engine of an Enzo... I am pretty certain that things would be a lot different than you think they are. What do you think happens when a car class gets upgraded? The whole car gets refitted. Since the Enzo CANNOT be refitted, it is possible for other cars to catch up to it by REFITTING them.

This is the whole concept of upgrading Car Classes.

[id0ru]

We're not refitting the chasis. The only thing you would accomplish by putting a 6.0L engine in a bay designed for a 2.6 (not that you could) would be to create a a car that was so front heavy that not only would it not turn, it would probably swish about a bit before crashing into a wall. You could take an example of the 1000bhp Skylines that some have made. But with that you need to take into account that the cars aerodynamics and overall construction no matter how well tuned will suffer at speeds beyond those it was designed for. Whereas an Enzo is at Stock designed to be stable at 200mph+ So tuning can increase performance, stability and braking by tuning the individual aspects of a car and replacing parts with better parts. But these cars have a terminal point at which upgrading cannot overcome the limitations of the cars. Supercars are designed with expense and practicality not taken into account. The skyline is a high performance vehicle that is built in a way to also be able to be your everyday car, decent sized boot, enough space to stick 5 people in it etc. Whereas an Enzo grudgingly makes space for one extra person.

Seeing as we're on the topic of Mustangs I will use Ford as an example. They used to race their RS500s at 2 power bands. 500 and 800 bhp. This is from a 2litre turbo. The 800bhp was used to qualifiers, the 500 for the races. Why? Because the car wouldn't last a long race at 800. The limitations of having to make a car that could be homolgated puts in place problems. Also with their Rally Spec Escort Cosworth. They famously DETUNED the car to a lower bhp. Why? Because the high power the engine was putting out was something the rest of the car couldn't keep up with, so the extra power slowed it down.

Because Supercars surpass the limitations placed on mass production cars a tuned car will always have a hard time matching one. And then when people go to the point of tuning supercars...well...

I'm not sure exactly WHICH Mustang the Snake is based on. So i'll take a guess at the 2005 Mustang GT. That car in REAL life is on par with a 2.0 2.5 Turbo Euro/Jap performance (Tuning) car at stock. Both in Speed and Acceleration. Though substantially better in Durability. I don't from that point of view then see why you are choosing the stats in speed and acc for those two cars that you did.

Or are we assuming the Snake is a really high end tuned Mustang as are sometimes released by Shelby for example?
I don't want you to think i'm being confrontational with you, i'm not. I just don't see a really fair way of balancing all these issues without making a class redundant unless Ijji start to meddle with the physics of the handling in the game.

[Torazo]

We're not refitting the chasis. The only thing you would accomplish by putting a 6.0L engine in a bay designed for a 2.6 (not that you could) would be to create a a car that was so front heavy that not only would it not turn, it would probably swish about a bit before crashing into a wall. You could take an example of the 1000bhp Skylines that some have made. But with that you need to take into account that the cars aerodynamics and overall construction no matter how well tuned will suffer at speeds beyond those it was designed for. Whereas an Enzo is at Stock designed to be stable at 200mph+ So tuning can increase performance, stability and braking by tuning the individual aspects of a car and replacing parts with better parts. But these cars have a terminal point at which upgrading cannot overcome the limitations of the cars. Supercars are designed with expense and practicality not taken into account. The skyline is a high performance vehicle that is built in a way to also be able to be your everyday car, decent sized boot, enough space to stick 5 people in it etc. Whereas an Enzo grudgingly makes space for one extra person.

Seeing as we're on the topic of Mustangs I will use Ford as an example. They used to race their RS500s at 2 power bands. 500 and 800 bhp. This is from a 2litre turbo. The 800bhp was used to qualifiers, the 500 for the races. Why? Because the car wouldn't last a long race at 800. The limitations of having to make a car that could be homolgated puts in place problems. Also with their Rally Spec Escort Cosworth. They famously DETUNED the car to a lower bhp. Why? Because the high power the engine was putting out was something the rest of the car couldn't keep up with, so the extra power slowed it down.

Because Supercars surpass the limitations placed on mass production cars a tuned car will always have a hard time matching one. And then when people go to the point of tuning supercars...well...

I'm not sure exactly WHICH Mustang the Snake is based on. So i'll take a guess at the 2005 Mustang GT. That car in REAL life is on par with a 2.0 2.5 Turbo Euro/Jap performance (Tuning) car at stock. Both in Speed and Acceleration. Though substantially better in Durability. I don't from that point of view then see why you are choosing the stats in speed and acc for those two cars that you did.

Or are we assuming the Snake is a really high end tuned Mustang as are sometimes released by Shelby for example?
I don't want you to think i'm being confrontational with you, i'm not. I just don't see a really fair way of balancing all these issues without making a class redundant unless Ijji start to meddle with the physics of the handling in the game.

All of the cars are redundant as they are now... Or haven't you noticed that? If you want to make a fair way to balance them, then stop criticizing me and attempt to make one yourself.

I don't want to hear your rants about car performance like that because it is unnecessary.

If you knew what Japan was good for in their cars, you would know that the street racers exploit certain aspects of the cars. The only thing that really changes much about each vehicle if they had the same engine, like you said, is the Chasis and the Weight Distribution.

I have changed it to this to keep the car classes as balanced as I could... I will be making a new chart to what I feel makes things as balanced as they can be for this game. This is how I used the Boost Feature. Instead of a 1-5 chart, it will be a 1-20 chart. I also added in SUV's because they seem to be extremely more durable than the other cars.

Tuners: Medium-High Accel, Medium-High Speed, Medium Dura, Medium Boost
Exotics: Medium Accel, High Speed, Low Dura, High Boost
Muscles: High Accel, Medium-High Speed, Medium-High Dura, Low Boost
SUV's: Medium-Low Accel, High Speed, High Dura, Medium-Low Boost


If you have a problem with the way I do things, then show me how you would do things instead of trying to teach me things I already knew... Physics explains everything a car can do. Engine rotation... Tire Grip per square inch... Mass x Velocity... If I see something in my head and I know what it is for, I naturally think on how physics affects it.

By the way, I only started using the Snake as an example as to the problem of stat distribution to begin with... I wasn't arguing for it alone, but rather I used it as a concept to show how other cars can be the same.

[Sulvoren]

Here is what I think car stats should look like... Needed to use the Boost Stat to make it even. Of course, every car won't have the same stats, but I thought that this should be an outline on what they should be based off of.


Import Tuner:
Acceleration; *******
Speed; *******
Durability; ****
Boost; *******
25

Exotic:
Acceleration; *******
Speed; ********
Durability; ****
Boost; ******
25

Muscle:
Acceleration; *********
Speed; *******
Durability; ******
Boost; ***
25

SUV:
Acceleration; ****
Speed; ********
Durability; *********
Boost; ****
25


So here are the examples. These stats wouldn't be set in stone.

Import Tuner Stats, 800 Total.
Acceleration; 224
Speed; 224
Durability; 128
Boost; 224

Exotic Stats, 800 Total.
Acceleration; 224
Speed; 256
Durability; 128
Boost; 192

Muscle Stats, 800 Total.
Acceleration; 288
Speed; 224
Durability; 192
Boost; 96

SUV Stats, 800 Total.
Acceleration; 128
Speed; 256
Durability; 288
Boost; 128

If you have a problem with this, then tell me what it is and attempt to fix it yourself. I know there is a problem with it myself and that is because I based it off of a 1/25 scale.

[id0ru]

Well First you need to decide what your Tuner Specs are. Putting Medium-High is confusing.
I guess IF you really want me to put it the way I see it using that system then I would probably go along the following lines:

Tuner: Medium Accel, Medium Speed, Medium Dura, High Boost
Muscle: High Accel, Low Speed, High Dura, Medium Boost
Exotic High Accel, High Speed, Low Dura, Low Boost

It would be something along those lines. But that wouldn't serve as much purpose. I don't think the stats as they are now are that bad. Look at -Smace- for example. He uses a V9 Snake to great effect and you'll always see him at the front of a race. Durability isn't actually as crippled a stat as a lot of people tend to think it is.

Also if the Enzo and the other V9 cars are actually put in at 3,000,000 Mito then don't you think that such a high premium SHOULD come with a performance advantage? Think of the parts you could buy for an upgraded V7 and V8 with the mito that you save.